I don't know Jacob, it's just a feeling I have I guess.

You have points but they told me directly that minoxidil is directly encapsulated in nanosomes and it is in the sulphate form.

I just can't call them liars. Sorry.

Do I believe them? Yes, I mean that's what they directly told me. The discrepencies are valid points but I just don't believe they rise to the point of lying all things considered.

Just a difference of opinion between us I guess.

Also, as far as listing minoxidil as the sulphate form, DS Labs probably thinks that they would get MORE questions by confused customers, ones who aren't as obsessed as Jacob, about whether minoxidil sulphate is the same as minoxidil, is it a cheap version, what is it, does it work as well, yada, yada, yada, etc.....

The same for the COA issue. And don't forget..it's only the minoxidil that's encapsulated in nanosomes now

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hatchet said: Obviously, and Jacob knows this, the FDA restricts what you can say on labels. You are limited I am sure to ONLY list "active" ingredients that are approved for hairloss by the FDA, IF you are going to say that your product actually GROWS hair. You can get in trouble with the FDA if you say your product grows hair and the ingredients aren't approved by the FDA. Again, Jacob knows this but is just playing a game. He knows he's wrong on this issue, but he doesn't care or he is just too immature to admit he lost the argument and can't let it go.

No that is not true. All ingredients are to be listed. If you're referring to Sandman's post- that is not what the discussion was about. He was saying the "active" ingredientS listed was minoxidil and therefore only minoxidil is encapsulated.

If you mean ingredients can only be called "active" if they're FDA approved- what the heck do you call what you posted last night? "This is the latest formula of Spectral DNC®. Spectral DNC® is a medication that incorporates Aminexil® a new, breakthrough compound which is the only other molecule aside from Minoxidil that is clinically proven to re-grow hair. Other ACTIVE INGREDIENTS include research grade Minoxidil 5%, Retinol, copper peptides, and a vitamin and mineral complex. The active ingredients are delivered in a technologically advanced vehicle, in tiny micro-spheres called nanosomes."

BTW..are you going to admit you were wrong about the latest- posted in the beginning of this thread? Or are you "too immature to admit (you) lost the argument and can't let it go."?

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"Also, as far as listing minoxidil as the sulphate form, DS Labs probably thinks that they would get MORE questions by confused customers, ones who aren't as obsessed as Jacob, about whether minoxidil sulphate is the same as minoxidil, is it a cheap version, what is it, does it work as well, yada, yada, yada, etc....."

Oh YEAH. THAT'S IT! No short explanation can be given or anything!

Just to clarify another false argument of yours: Webmasters don't write and edit web copy, Jacob. Copywriters write and edit web copy.

If you enjoy pointing out inconsistencies so much, why don't you do the same for other products? Why is your focus only on DS Labs? Just because they won't listen to your crybaby whining about why they won't make unnecessary copy edits that you keep suggesting?

Do you think these people are in business to please you? They should just stop what they’re doing and immediately make all these changes that you insist on whether the changes are necessary or not? They should violate FDA labeling rules because you don’t like the way it reads? They should get up every morning, have a meeting and say, “Jacob wants us to change stuff, people. Let’s get busy!”

You have way too much time on your hands. And don’t throw this back on me. You have been irrationally obsessed with this issue for months, before I even signed up on this forum.

Now that you’ve been proven wrong on every so-called point you’ve tried to make, I’m going back to stuff that matters. And you will change the argument to something else that doesn't matter, and I will ignore you because the issue is settled as far as I'm concerned. That's enough for me. I don't need the last word like you, Jacob. Please feel free now to contine acting like a little boy. I will ignore your irrelevant nonsense. I have better things to do, and you don't. It's that simple.

As per the latest email response, to Old Baldy, Divine Skin confirms that the Minoxidil in Spectral DNC is indeed encapsulated in nanosomes!

Divine Skin made the same confirmation to me, hatchet, Jetman, and numerous others.

But, according to Jacob, each and every one of said email responses from Divine Skin are outright lies.

Althrough Jacob has repeatedly accused Divine Skin of lies and fraud, he has yet to produce one iota of actual evidence, that is not based on heresy, conjecture and/or the spin of his own personal opinion to support his allegations.

Jacob, accuses Divine Skin of outright lies, while offering no actual evidence to support his allegations.

Yet, Jacob, fully expects others to believe everything he says as the absolute truth.

Under the United States system of justice the accused are considered innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof rests with those making the allegations. In this case, said burden lies with Jacob.

However, Jacob, continues to accuse Divine Skin of outright lies in their email responses, while offering not one iota of actual evidence that said email repsonses are indeed lies!

In summation, the one that is sadly lacking in fairness and creditability is Jacob!

Please get back to us, Jacob, when you've had Spectral DNC tested, via independent lab analysis, with the supporting documentation for your allegations of lies and fraud.

In the absence of said documentation, any fair minded individual, interested in actual justice, should consider the email responses from Divine Skin to be true!

let me throw this out there, DS may or may not change the website/labeling as they stated. Unless there were tons of people making a racket about this, i doubt it will happen in a hurry. We have NO IDEA how many people work at DS and how their workload/priorities are setup. Maybe they're unorganized? Who knows. I've worked at places where simple things don't get done for months - only because there are "bigger" jobs to do. We can't say for certain DS is or isn't lying because we have no idea what goes on inside the company on a day-to-day basis.

Even IF DS is mislabeleing/trying to dupe their consumers, there's lots more "mislabeling" going on in the world. Potato chip companies will tout "no transfat" on their products, even when they use hydogenated oils. It's the same thing... Oh, but wait, they're not required to list transfat when it's under 5%. Why don't we start a mass campaign against frito lay and their mislabeling...

IF DS is doing something "wrong," it'll catch up with them sooner or later and they'll be in trouble. and IF they are doing something wrong, it's going to take a whole lot more than just a few people to change it.

Jacob, you do bring a lot of insight to the forum, but i can't understand your vendetta against DS. If they make you that unhappy, screw 'em. don't waste your time getting bent outta shape over it. If the stuff works for some people, be happy for them.

DS's customer service will only give you as much info as they are allowed to.

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hatchet said: If they CLAIM the product GROWS HAIR the FDA restricts what they can list on the LABEL as the active ingredients to medicine approved for hairloss treatment. That quote wasn't from the label, and I never said it was, now did I? The label lists active ingredients and primary ingredients. It also very clearly lists the ingredients that are encapsulated.

Are you arguing with Sandman again or me? Sandman is the one who brought up the point that ONLY minoxidil is listed as an ACTIVE ingredient on the label, and that because of what else they say, it's plain ONLY the ACTIVE ingredient(s) is encapsulated, which is minoxidil.

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"Just to clarify another false argument of yours: Webmasters don't write and edit web copy, Jacob. Copywriters write and edit web copy."

Actually some of them DO. But what kind of stupid nonsense argument are you grasping for now? What difference does it make? It's still no excuse for not changing things on the website to reflect what we're talking about here. As they've changed the website numerous times over the past 2 years.

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"If you enjoy pointing out inconsistencies so much, why don't you do the same for other products? Why is your focus only on DS Labs? Just because they won't listen to your crybaby whining about why they won't make unnecessary copy edits that you keep suggesting?"

I HAVE. You just weren't around when I was having fun doing it with others, mainly the Proctor and Lee products. Why does it bother you so much?

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"Do you think these people are in business to please you? They should just stop what they’re doing and immediately make all these changes that you insist on whether the changes are necessary or not? They should violate FDA labeling rules because you don’t like the way it reads? They should get up every morning, have a meeting and say, “Jacob wants us to change stuff, people. Let’s get busy!”

It's been 2 years. They've made changes. I'm not the only one who's questioned them on this(I'm just the most persistent). Stop making excuses. There's nothing illegal about putting "minoxidil encapsulated in nanosomes" unless it isn't true.

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"You have way too much time on your hands. And don’t throw this back on me. You have been irrationally obsessed with this issue for months, before I even signed up on this forum."

You have way too much time on your hands. Especially for someone who keeps saying they're going to ignore me. You seem obsessed with it.

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"Now that you’ve been proven wrong on every so-called point you’ve tried to make, I’m going back to stuff that matters. And you will change the argument to something else that doesn't matter, and I will ignore you because the issue is settled as far as I'm concerned. That's enough for me. I don't need the last word like you, Jacob. Please feel free now to contine acting like a little boy. I will ignore your irrelevant nonsense. I have better things to do, and you don't. It's that simple."

I haven't been proven wrong on this yet. I knew Old Baldy would get the same nonsense we've been getting for the past 2 years. As you said, you're "too immature to admit (you) lost the argument and can't let it go." Or have you, finally? Or

None of the other ingredients in Spectral DNC are listed as "active ingredients" on the label of the bottle!

The package insert states; "This formulation uses tiny mirco spheres called nanosomes that are used to encapsulate the active ingredients in a lotion compound".

The above sentence, from the package insert, only references the "active ingredients" as being encapsulated in nanosomes.

"Minoxidil 5%" is the only "active ingredient" listed on the Spectral DNC bottle and the package insert references only the "active ingredients" as being encapsulated in nanosomes.

You, Jacob, agree that the "Minoxidil 5%" is an active ingredient in Spectral DNC.

Furthermore, the package insert only refers to the "active ingredients" as being encapsulated in nansomes.

Therefore, Jacob, to refute the validity of Divine Skin's statements is a self contradiction!

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If DS's statements had any validity you may have a point.

You just shot yourself in the foot, once again. You say minoxidil is the only active ingredient listed on the label, and yet Aminexil isn't an active ingredient? The herbal ones, as I'll repost about again below?(after that below..see the things you still haven't responded to- the first one being why they don't just say, what you're trying your hardest to say they are, on their website and labeling). Not only that...but "active ingredientS" implies more than one. So explain why they'd say minoxidil is the only active ingredient(and it isn't) and yet say "active ingredients" as those being encapsulated?

See how stupid they are? According to you now..ONLY the minoxidl is encapsulted. BRILLIANT! Lets wait until their next update when they can make it even more crystal clear

The "active" ingredients discussed on the website are the HERBAL active ingredients. They talk about these ingredients being encapsulated.

From their website:

"Nanosomes (microscopic capsules deliver active ingredients deeper into the tissue)"

Yes..they do now say the new ingreds are encapsulated(again..why not just say so regarding the minox etc? They "upgrade" the website with these new ingreds..but can't clarify things as they said they'd do?): "The addition of Adenosince and Procyanidin B-1 and C-2 is a recent innovation that further boosts the performance of Spectral DNC. Both compounds are encapsulated in our proprietary nanosomes. Spectral DNC is the only formulation in the world that delivers Adenosine and Procyanidin B-1 and C-2 in a nanosomal carrier agent."

That may not exactly be true either. Fred's Nanoadeno contains both Adenosine and apple peel extract(for the pro's).

And this is still there: "DS Laboratories proprietary nanosomes act as the carrier enhancement agent. These nanosomes are about 10 times smaller then cells and penetrate deep into the epidermis and continuously release the active herbal extracts over a 12 hour period"

Please reread that about a dozen times.

Do the same for this which is right after the above: "This allows penetration deeper into the hair follicle then other carrier agent including Tretinoin or Azelaic Acid and further enhances the performance of all the ingredients in Spectral.DNC. "

Even on their nanosome/technology page it still says this: "This highly advanced delivery system combined with finest quality natural active ingredients insures remarkable results and effectiveness." See the word "natural"? Minox and aminexil are not "natural".

As for what they say in their package insert- we've been through that before as well. From above " and further enhances the performance of all the ingredients in Spectral.DNC" is what they're referring to as the nanosomes helping the other ingred

Re:

let me throw this out there, DS may or may not change the website/labeling as they stated. Unless there were tons of people making a racket about this, i doubt it will happen in a hurry. We have NO IDEA how many people work at DS and how their workload/priorities are setup. Maybe they're unorganized? Who knows. I've worked at places where simple things don't get done for months - only because there are "bigger" jobs to do. We can't say for certain DS is or isn't lying because we have no idea what goes on inside the company on a day-to-day basis.

Even IF DS is mislabeleing/trying to dupe their consumers, there's lots more "mislabeling" going on in the world. Potato chip companies will tout "no transfat" on their products, even when they use hydogenated oils. It's the same thing... Oh, but wait, they're not required to list transfat when it's under 5%. Why don't we start a mass campaign against frito lay and their mislabeling...

IF DS is doing something "wrong," it'll catch up with them sooner or later and they'll be in trouble. and IF they are doing something wrong, it's going to take a whole lot more than just a few people to change it.

Jacob, you do bring a lot of insight to the forum, but i can't understand your vendetta against DS. If they make you that unhappy, screw 'em. don't waste your time getting bent outta shape over it. If the stuff works for some people, be happy for them.

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Exactly the opposite. I enjoy doing this..and they make me happy by constantly proving me right.

As for what else you said..excuses and "everybody else does it" doesn't fly for me. You cannot possibly update your website like they have and then use as an excuse- no time..not a priority..whatever. It would be different if this was the first time they were asked about this. But it's been nearly 2 years now.

BTW..I am happy if it's working for some. Like anything..some things work for some and not others. I'm also happy Sandman is having such good luck with a product that contains ingredients he used to mock and question whenever they were brought up. Prior to Spectral containing them, that is